The Blame Game
Why do the front page headlines about the late Chris Burgess having meth in his system bother me? Probably because it seems to simplify the issue and now a lot of people are going to say something like, "Oh, he was on meth. That explains it. Case closed...".
Sure, meth can alter one's judgement and cause someone to do something he might not normally do. But shouldn't there be some individual responsibility involved here?
On the flip side, does the fact someone is on meth dictate what actions police should take when dealing with someone? First, none of the law enforcement on the scene knew for sure he was on meth. They might have suspected, but they didn't know for sure.
Regardless, actions taken were in response to actions Burgess initiated, whether he had meth in his system, or not, response should (and I assume did) remain the same.
I realize there are serious problems with meth in this county, and across the state. I realize this makes good news showing how serious the problem might be, but I think it clouds the issues involved with the Burgess shooting.
Meth was a player, but there's no way we can say he [or law enforcement] would have acted differently had meth not been involved.
posted by Fred Mangels @ 9:26 AM
94 comments
94 Comments:
Well, he probably wouldve went down from the pepper spray had he not been on meth...
He was pepper sprayed to be subdued. That didn't work. He ran. He brandished a knife at a police officer. He was on meth. Are all of these true? Then, yes, indeed, the case is most certainly closed. The sad thing is that his mother gets off without punishment. Hell, she might become a millionaire. Talk about a screwed up society.
If Chris Burgess wasn't in the habit of using Meth, maybe he would have been more inclined to cooperate with the Probation Officers. If he had done that, EPD would not have been called.
Maybe it's not the meth by itself, but also the bad attitude of the habitual user of illegal drugs that leads to disaster.
Look at how the kid was raised. This young adult didn't magically become a bad apple.
Fred - what would you have done differently if you were the police officer in question?
Subdue the suspect, take away his knife and hug him?
That didn't work to well for Ron Goldman, did it?
That's not what I'm saying, 10:15. Are you new here?
I'm just saying that dismissing the issue simply because meth is involved is troubling to me.
10:07 wrote, "He was pepper sprayed to be subdued. That didn't work. He ran. He brandished a knife at a police officer. He was on meth. Are all of these true? Then, yes, indeed, the case is most certainly closed.".
That's a bit better than closing the case just because meth was involved.
No one is saying close the case because meth was involved. It's just another scrap tossed onto a huge pile of evidence that makes me want to hug the police officer involved. We as a society have lost our common sense. This whole thing is as bad as the neocons who, when faced with scandal after scandal, blame the person who brought forward the evidence. A bad person did a bad thing and got shot for it. Yes he was less than 18 years old, but a 16 year old should know better.
Indeed. I have no problem with meth being a contributing factor in the incident.
Hell, for that matter, let's say the kid was a 30-year-old husband and father of four kids, held a good respectable job and was vegan. No wait, he was a pastor of a huge church. No drugs. No prior record. No speeding tickets. Loved by everyone. When an officer came to his door he became combative and ran and then brandished a knife at the officer and got shot dead. I still want to hug that cop. Someone acted stupid, and it wasn't the officer. The people attacking the police in this situation make me sick to my stomach.
Yup, it's just impossible to plant evidence, it's never happened in this state before...
10:31 is absolutely right. It was the actions of Burgess at the time of the incident that caused the officer to shoot him.
Having learned or confirmed that Burgess had meth in his system helps to explain it to people. Most people, especially in Eureka, know somebody or have seen somebody on meth. But what if he was acting the way he was because he ate "twinkies", or he had some other/unknown mental defect. As far as the officer shooting it was because of what Burgess was doing at that particular time, assaulting the officer at close range with a big knife.
You can blame the system, the mother, probation, or Palco (cause everything seems to be Palco's fault if you listen to people around here) but you can't blame the cop. The cop was doing his job pursuing the criminal and in the end he was defending himself.
It is common for 16 year olds, and younger, to be tried as adults. It's sad about Burgess' screwed up childhood, his lousy mom, living in foster homes, and his drug use. And maybe his use of meth kept him from thinking about right or wrong at that time but, if a 6', 180 pound guy, with a big knife is coming at you (and has threaten others) what would you do? He closed to within 5' of the officer. Put it to rest. It's sad that Burgess is dead, but he created the circumstances. Stop blaming the cops for his mom's failure.
Actually its the cop who failed. The cop could've called for a k-9 unit to be dispatched.
No, it's the guy who threatened a cop who failed. This would/coulda/shoulda after-the-fact stuff is crap and you know it. He could have called a helicopter in to hover over the guy until he came out. He could have done a lot of things. He went after a guy wielding a knife and that cop saved lives as far as I'm concerned.
Bring a dog to a knife fight? You must hate dogs. I'm glad both officers are unharmed (dog and person). Thank God.
"...The cop could've called for a k-9 unit to be dispatched."
Yes, and the Mother Ship. Beam him up Scotty!
don't be dumbasses! Police dogs are trained to go for the hand holding the weapon. Hell, use two of em. Point is that that criminal cop FAILED MISERABLY and will have to face every waking moment pushing aside the reality that he is a MURDERER!
Actually, he saved everyone in the vicinity from a guy with a knife. Thank You!
1:37PM is proof that there are still others out there using meth.
1:37 doesn't know how police dogs are trained, doesn't know how many Police Dogs EPD has, knows NOTHING about poice training or tactics,
and has no fucking idea if any Police dogs were even on duty at the time of the incident. 1:37 is just another moron that doesn't know his ass from his face, hates cops, and has an opinion about everything.
The truth is the officer did a great job. It would have been a great job if Burgess had surrendered peacefully. The officer did a great job by going toward the danger, the call for help by the probation officers, and then pursuing a violent person. That's what we expect of our cops. 1:37 PM is a coward what would never expose himself to danger, or even discomfort.
Be glad there are cops left in Eureka that will do a difficult job.
1:37PM is just a rabid moron, he's probably mad at the cops because they busted him for meth or beating up his girlfriend. A whimp, a pussy.
I hope Terry Liles sleeps soundly knowing his community is thankful for his service. I hope his wife Ranae knows how sorry a lot of us feel for having jumped in there with opinions before all the facts were known.
I hope Marjorie Burgess tries to teach her surviving son that cops are here to protect the public and if for any reason he is asked to do anything at all by a public safety officer-do it!
Owning up to mistakes-Yes I'm on meth today and I'm going to get arrested...again. It's probably preferrable to be in trouble than be dead.
But only the individual can make these choices.
It's a choice to use drugs or not use drugs.
It's a choice to be a police officer and do the best you can every day.
It's really horrible that the choices people make put them in conflict with others and that sometimes it isn't a win/win situation.
I'm sure it has been very hard for Officer Liles to work through his own grief at the way this situation turned out. For armchair quarterbacks to make it worse is a shame and you embarrass yourselves whether you realize it or not.
That goes for you too Fred.
Amen.
What is missed in discussing this incident is the manner in which the police and probation officers escalated the situation from a routine warrant to a fatal shooting. I have yet to hear what the warrant was for, but it does not appear to have been for any violent crime. It could have been for something as simple and routine as not checking in with his probation officer. Yet, somehow, this simple and routine arrest resulted in an officer shooting Burgess to death.
The fact that Burgess was only 5 to 7 feet away from the officer suggests to me that the officer put himself at an unsafe distance before getting the suspect to disarm. Once in that situation, there was probably little liklihood of a non-violent resolution, particularly with a suspect on meth.
While meth is a nasty, ugly drug, it's use is not a capital offense and is not justification for the officer shooting the boy.
Again, what was the original offense for which the warrant was issued? Did that offense justify a course of action which ended in death?
Anon 3:07 I know more about cops than you ever will. K-9 units are always on duty and if a situation warrants immediate attention they do so.
Reality is you have not proved your point but have only thrown insults.
Reality is I do not hate cops, I do hate murderers and the EPD cop who murdered that kid is a murderer wether or not anyone wants to admit it.
How can a probabtion officer being backed out of a residence escalate the situation-are you on Crack?
The probation officers went to a residence to speak to or arrest Mr Burgess-it was this suspect that escalated the situation by brandishing a weapon, threatening officers and backing them out of the house.
What part of 'it was the suspect escalating the situation' DONT YOU UNDERSTAND??
He could have held out his wrists, gotten his little slap and landed in juvenile hall AGAIN rather than jack the place up 100 notches.
He would have gotten probation from our very magnanimous DA...
He didn't HAVE to MAKE the CHOICES HE Christopher Burgess, MADE---but he did. Everybody is sorry about the choices he made that day. But we can't bring him back and we can't erase the things he brought on himself.
If you are grieving we can feel sorry for you too. If you are on meth you can ask for help.
SOMEBODY WROTE: "It's really horrible that the choices people make put them in conflict with others..."
I WRITE: If you "choose" to "Obey the Law," you will not find yourself in conflict with so many other people!
Think about that for a minute, will ya?
That's what laws are FOR. We agree on the laws, then we follow the laws. No conflict! No problem!
SOMEBODY ELSE WROTE: "The fact that Burgess was only 5 to 7 feet away from the officer suggests to me that the officer put himself at an unsafe distance before getting the suspect to disarm."
I REPLY: Why don't YOU try racing after an armed individual into a gully you haven't been in before. See how easy it is to anticipate the lay of the land, especially if some idiot let bamboo grow thick in the gully. I guess YOU can see through bamboo? Probably You can see around corners, too.
4:04. The murderous pig should've waited for back up AND a k-9 unit.
Hopefully the swine will run into someone armed the next time he draws his weapon in a fit of rage.
SOME WASTREL WROTE: "Reality is I do not hate cops, I do hate murderers and the EPD cop who murdered that kid is a murderer wether or not anyone wants to admit it."
I POST THIS RETORT: Death is Death and Murder is Murder. Sometimes Death is Murder, but not always and not automatically.
Read "Criminal Law for Dummies." It will help you figure out the difference, one from the other.
I apologize for writing "wastrel."
That was unnecessarily harsh and inappropriate.
These cop haters smoke too many doobies.
Has nothing to do with cop haters. It has everything to do with a specific cop who murdered a specific person.
Just because someone wants justice done to one murdering swine doesn't mean that one considers all cops bad.
Well you must hate cops as you refer to them as "swine".
As the one cop, well pal it's not murder it's called "justifiable homicide". And just like Frank sings ........ "that's life".
OK you got me, what does WASTREL mean ?
No, I did not refer to cops as swine. I referred to the specific murdering cop as a swine.
Nice try at trying to pigeonhole me as a cop hater, but alas. YOU FAILED!
3:23 PM By your definition any time a probation officer or police officer takes on step in furtherence of doing their job they are "escalint" the situation.
What do you think probation officers and cops do ? Send a letter and ask the violater to turn himself in?
And it does not matter what the original arrest warrant was for. Probation violation, petty theft, arson, rape, drunk driving, assault driving on a suspended license .. it doesn't matter. An arrest warrant is an order by the court (a judge) to arrest and incarcerate the violater. Burgess was on probation and eligable for a visit any time. So even if the warrant was for petty theft Burgess had an obligation to submit to the arrest and a search by the probation officers. The violence occured when he resisted, did whatever he did to cause the probation officers to pepper spray him, then pulled the knife, made verbal threats and so on. The probation officers and the cop did their job, they did not escalate anything Burgess did all the escalation.
And the "boy" was shot, a died, for assault with a deadly weapon, not using meth. You seem educated, use you brain lady.
5:30PM You do hate cops, it's obvious. Liles is just the one in your sights right now. You're also just an asshole. That's OK God will forgive you.
3:30 PM you are drolling nutcase! You know more about cops ! You don't know Jack about cops, other than saying "yes sir officer", "may I have a drink of water sir", "my handcuffs are too tight".
Of the 40 comments so far on this post only 2 (Fred and Carol Ann) have the guts to not hide behind the "anonymous" tag. What gives? We don't know if some of the idiots are arguing with themselves or just fearful of the "known to be peaceful", progressive, dope using jerks who want others to be subjected to their leftist world view while being exempted from the consequences of their own stupid choices i.e "cop haters". Those who choose to use crank, speed or other methamphetamines undergo a personality change and engage in acts that they would not otherwise commit. I have been shot at, assaulted, screamed at, and been intentionally nearly run over by cranksters who would not try any of it if not high. These jerks suffer the consequences not of crank but of the CHOICE to use crank. Some are prevented from harming others and some are not. You can judge the cop who did what he is paid to do if you were a) present during the event or b) aware of all of the facts. Until then either shut up or stop hiding behind the "anonymous" tag.
Why is Fred's blog a magnet for police haters?
It's a regional thing.
Why are so many of you unwilling to admit that there are bad cops?
Also, the reason most people are anonymous here is because they don't want some meaty fist in their face late at night telling them to "change their attitude".
Afterall, the same types who use meth or murder people would gladly bully someone into silence.
Long live free speech.
"...they don't want some meaty fist in their face late at night telling them to "change their attitude"."
Answer to a meaty fist: .357 magnum. Scratch that. I forgot. Most of you live in the Humboldt soviet. Answer a meaty fist and you may go to jail. Excuse my prior comment.
6:08 PM Next time you wish to report being mugged, call a hippie.
Although "Wastrel" has a dictionary definition, which you can find as easily as I can, I was referring to a fictional character in one of my favorite comic strips, whose name is "Wastrel" something-or-other. I can't remember the rest. He's sort of unemployed and homeless. He makes poor choices. A fictional (cartoon) character.
I admit it, there are plenty of bad hippies in Humboldt County. They lobby to reduce and limit our police force and increase crime for the rest of us.
ΛΕΟΝΙΔΑΣ said...
Of the 40 comments so far on this post only 2 (Fred and Carol Ann) have the guts to not hide behind the "anonymous" tag. What gives?
MAYBE we don't want to offend some pathological ACLU-loving meth-head tweaker and end up with a mob of graffiti-spraying mental defectives picketing our front yards.
You are right, Carol Ann. Cleaning up a neighborhood (rural or urban) sends a signal to tweakers and criminals in general about what will and what won't be tolerated. Even removing the trash that people drop on the sidewalks makes a difference. Neighborhood Watch is a great way for people to protect themselves and their families by keeping an eye out for their neighbors' well-being. Thanks for reminding us what we CAN DO to fix things here.
What's up with this ??? The discussion is turning positive?
and a police review board could help the citizens to urge police to get the proper training in regards to citizen interactions. That way no more people have to be murdered by EPD, that's of course assuming that the EPD doesn't like murdering people.
And raving idiots like 3:22AM know what the proper training is (in regards to citizen interaction). This guy doesn't even know the definition of murder.
Stop the presses. Hold the phone. This guy was a victim of the system. His mother wasn't at fault. So say friends and family. He wasn't violent. He was a saint. Juvenile Hall is evil. Good, saintly kids end up in Juvenile Hall. So reports the Times-Standard. Case closed.
Mom seems to have forgotten to mention the time that the teacher took him home because mom publicly threatened the kid at school. That darn failed system...
The Times-Standard botched their report on the October 30 meeting at City Hall. Reporter Durant made it sound as if everyone in the room agreed with the far-out cop-haters, which was FAR FROM TRUE. Then the editor refused to make corrections or print an opinion piece from anyone with a more reasonable attitude.
Stirring the pot seems to be new Times-Standard editor Rich Somerville's main interest, not accurately reflecting what goes on in public meetings at critically important times of crisis in Eureka.
If Eurekans lose faith in their police force and city government because of slanted reporting, well, that's a small price to pay to put feathers in the caps of classy journalists like Rich Somerville and Chris Durant.
Why is it anyone who criticizes the any police officer is immediately painted with the broad brush of "cop hater".
Stay in Nebraska Dick Bravo
2:49. how is it you presume authority over me dear child?
If I see you anywhere near Humboldt county Dick Bravo I will personally remove your presence permanently.
ANon 3:22, what do you consider proper training for police? Have you been through the academy? WOuld you even know?
The Police Review Board would turn into a huge witch hunt and it would serve no good right now. Too many people that are anti-police (and hate them just because of their job) would end up on it and it would horribly skew things. It needs a balance of the types of people on it so it can be fair, that would not happen right now.
Would all the cop haters please just move to Nebraska? Thank you.
Anon 3:01 is right. A Police Review Board would be filled with people with an agenda.
Just think of the frenzy of Ken Miller and his crowd jockying for favor, selling their soul to get appointed to a police review board. I'm sure it's what he dreams of.
3:01 could be right. the Rose's of the committee would certainly have an agenda protecting the police at all times no matter they've done. Their dream of a totalitarian state would be enhanced.
"Their dream of a totalitarian state" ...... you're funny!
I know I shouldn't make fun of the mentally impaired but WHAT PLANET ARE YOU FROM 7:33pm ?
he's from Uranus or someone elses anus.
If I had an agenda, I would not apply. Same reason I did not apply to become a Grand Juror.
Nick Bravo said...
Why is it anyone who criticizes the any police officer is immediately painted with the broad brush of "cop hater".
11:39 AM
Nick Bravo, you are WRONG.
People like me believe in waiting until the evidence of police brutality is established BEFORE WE HANG A POLICE OFFICER.
If we suggest waiting until the facts are known, it upsets your plan for a public hanging.
You think we are painting you with a broad brush. I think your M.O. involves the liberal use of your very own broad brush.
You are as unfair to other people as you claim they are to you.
~~~I know I shouldn't make fun of the mentally impaired but WHAT PLANET ARE YOU FROM 7:33pm ?
He's not really mentally impaired.
He's "Attitudinally Impaired."
Hey Dick Bravo, why don't you go hang out in some prairie dog town in Nebraska ?
12:06 I am waiting for all evidence. Why is it you assume I'm one of the anonymous posters?
Strange how people think that those who agree with them must populate these boards and that those who disagree with them are a mere few.
Personally I do not "hate cops". There are good cops and bad cops. I do think that a police review board is neccessary in order to ensure that bad cops are punished and in some instances thrown out of the police force because bad cops make the job harder for good cops.
Also, police are ultimately still as human as the people they encounter in daily life and the people they put in jail. Cops have fears, prejudices, emotional boiling points, and every other human fraility that the rest of the humanity has. To claim that they don't is to disenfranchise cops from the rest of humanity.
Rose, I like your biting wit but in this case you don't have evidence for your assertion. The Police Review petition clearly calls for seven members to be chosen at random from applicants meeting various descriptions to ensure diversity. There's no way anyone is going to 'stack' police review commission membership, and the city council can remove anyone they find really objectionable.
Oh yeah, I'm sure there will be an even distribution of cop loves and haters in the membership pool. Not. Police review boards are for lynchings.
Maybe not everywhere, but in the political climate we have here, that's exactly what it would be.
You can't stack something chosen at random. You want your shot at a seat, then apply.
Duh, yes you can. The majority of people who apply believe in police review, thusly having a negative view of police in the first place. Stacked... in each and every case.
For you babblers out there...look up the site:
www.Nacole.com
click on Board Training.
Then let us know your real name, and let us know if you would be able to cut the mustard for judging the police...
I passed their little test with flying colors.
Huh? Online casino gambling?
OH. You mean Nacole.ORG,
not .com
OK
Would that kind of training were to be implemented here?
Duh, yes you can. The majority of people who apply believe in police review, thusly having a negative view of police in the first place. Stacked... in each and every case.
Say what? Have you seen the list of members on the fake little ad-hoc public safety committee the Eureka City Council set up to deflect calls for a real police review commission? All of them, without exception, are "throw the book at them" types, not one is a member of the Coalition for Police Review (according to their own press release). Is this any indication of who would be applying? And again, the police review commission would be chosen by lot, so rigging its membership is made yet more difficult still.
And what makes a "member of the Coalition for Police Review" so special ? The fact that they already dislike, hate, or have a bone to pick with cops ?
What would make the police review committee unique is that it would consist of people who treat cops like human beings and won't be intimidated by badges.
Yo Dick Bravo, not a very good answer. Kind of lame. Take that back, it's really lame.
Reminds me of the Wizard of Oz! "if I only had a brain", well Dick are you off to see the Wizard?
So 10:18, I take it you don't want cops treated as human beings and thought of as same. How would you like the average citizen to treat cops and think of cops as?
C'mon, be honest 10:18. Perhaps...
"yes officer! Thank you for pulling me over and writting me a ticket. You must've had a very tiring day of wreaking justice upon scoundrels such as myself. By the way I have this box of donuts and I would like you too have them. Oh they were just for my pregnant wife but you are obviously entitled to them afterall your badge marks you as an infinitly superior being compared to non-badge wearing members of society."*
*to be said with complete sincerety*
Nick the Dick ! Dickie Nickie you are a twisted ........... person.
I'm twisted because I want police to be treated as human being???
How else should they be treated?
Anonymous said...
The kid had skipped school. That is why they busted into the home he was at with out a warrant (being on probation, they do not need one, plus, minors have no rights) and he ran scared after they pepper sprayed him.
Yes he had a 5" knife (you measure a knife by the length of the blade, that is unless you feel a need to embellish a story as the the EPD apparently did.) and he ran AWAY with that knife.
But he had to be hunted down and right then. No one runs from the EPD and gets away with it, or in this case, lives to tell the tale.
Good thing too, or someone might have got cut.
9:53 AM
Nickie Dickie you don't want the police treated like human beings. You are such a liar. Why don't you keep you wierdness to yourself in Nebraska or under whatever rock you call home?
9:55 also posted on another post at 9:53. He was also called and idiot and a dick which is appropriate as he is deliberately trying to misinform. Tell us dickie - do you think that you'll get some dim wit to support police review boards if you lie about the facts here? Go figure...and go back under your rock.
Yes, Yes, Yes
I'm not the one lying....nor am I the coward hiding behind the label of "anonymous".
F*&^ you Dickie. Who says you can't be anonymos? Huh Dickie?
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