Saturday, June 02, 2007

Teen Challenge Challenged Again

Naturally, the idea that Teen Challenge needs a government license and needs to follow all sort of government requirements to operate their recovery centers rubs me the wrong way.

Teen Challenge, you'll remember, is the faith based organization that runs some local substance abuse recovery centers and is planning on opening a large one on Wabash Street in Eureka.

I say if it works, don't try and fix it.

That said, I have no idea how successful they are. I also have no idea how successful their counterparts in the government sector are. It would be interesting to compare the two and see who actually comes out ahead in the substance recovery effort: The maverick christian outfit, or the highly regulated, politically correct government one.

And I love the not so subtle suggestion in the Eureka Reporter article that, since Teen Challenge receives government money via various programs its participants are in (participant's social security income, for instance) it therefore falls under government purview.

Scary stuff indeed to suggest that simply because one receives government money, no matter what the source or how far down the line it comes from, they should bow the The State and submit to whatever The State wants.

As far as lack of accountability, as Tim Flemming suggests would be a problem, seems to me they can always deal with that one way or another through the conditional use permit granted by the Planning Commission. The question is what Teen Challenge should be held accountable for?

As far as I'm concerned they should simply be held accountable to running their operation as they said they'd run it- at least in regards to how the operation interacts with the neighborhood.

Other than that, it should be hands off, except for instances of violations of local or state law.

104 Comments:

At 9:30 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

What's the story on Flemming no longer being at Crossroads>? He was there a month ago.

 
At 2:25 PM, Anonymous Gingerbread Man said...

It's not okay to pay for religious proselytizing with tax dollars and it is not charity when people are required to participate in relious brain-washing as a condition to getting help.

 
At 3:04 PM, Blogger Fred said...

So, if your all, or part, of your income consists of social security; either you shouldn't be allowed to attend non- pc drug abuse recovery centers, or they shouldn't be allowed to accept you?

 
At 4:01 PM, Blogger ΛΕΟΝΙΔΑΣ said...

"It's not okay to pay for religious proselytizing with tax dollars..."

But it is ok to require gov't school inmates to spend time in "understanding and sympathizing" with Islamic culture/religion as in a Marin County school district?

 
At 4:17 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your organization is receiving my tax money? Damn straight I want you adhering to my state's standards. This decision is easy. Comply or start spending your own dime.

 
At 4:27 PM, Blogger Pogo said...

Just say NO to stolen (taxpayer) cash.

 
At 5:27 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well Fred. If you don't know the facts you should reserve having an opinion. First of all Social Security annuity payments don't come from public funds. Social Security is a Government administered insurance program for workers, funded by premium payments from employees and employers.

Now SSI is public funds and is welfare. Just like the MediCal money that Fred is receiving. BTW Fred, maybe the reason you don't like public money recipients having to be accountable to the public is because you're one of those welfare recipients. At the least, you have a conflict of interest in giving your opinion and you should let everyone know just how many welfare programs you are sponging from. Fred just wants to keep secret he's a welfare bum, carrying the shame of being economically unsuccessful and now on the dole.

Given money always has strings (unless you're in LaLa land and believe in "love offerings"). That's why political contributions are so carefully questioned and why as a child I had to explain how I spent my allowance as a child. Government contracts always have provisions for auditing and often special requiremnts that have nothing to do with the products or services that are delivered (like small business subcontracting and hiring women).

Finally, this treatment program is sponsored by Steve Strombeck, a notorious arrogant and greedy landlord. Check the Arcata Eye's current issue (and back issues) for the facts of how he ignores building codes and gouges renters, turning affordable properties into unaffordable properties, making big bucks to suppoprt his religious right agenda. Strombeck's tentacles also encompass Redwood Capital Bank (he's a board member), whose president and many staff are evangelical holy rollers. I think most of Strombeck's activities are a front for his personal economic greed, similar to Synanon in S.F., the Moonies, and Hare Krishnas.

 
At 7:48 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow, that last one is a doozy. Name calling, anti-Christian, anti-capitalist..Must be a government worker drone that gets a little defensive when, once again, the private sector kicks their butt. Seems to know an awful lot about these guys..jealous, huh?

 
At 8:15 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

...though he/she IS right.

 
At 12:39 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 4:51 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 1:56 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'd be more concerned with the massive corporate welfare in this country before picking on disability cases like Fred. BTW, that liberal hero Senator Kennedy led the charge 10 years back to reduce benefits for disabled children. There's Democrat heroism for you.

 
At 2:33 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

One of the comments Fred deleted was his own. First time I've seen a situation where a blog owner has deleted their own posting. Fred's got lots of shame to hide behind his self promotion as someone with a valuable opinion.

No one is "picking" on Fred, just asking him to 'fess up to what welfare programs he's on. Only fair to know if he's actually promoting his self interest rather than some principle. Fred often demands the same from others who he criticizes. Its everyone's right to have an opinion, just let folks know if you personally are getting something out of it.

 
At 3:21 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Fred has every right to collect disability benefits, since, unlike these liberal fascist a**holes, Fred actually has worked for a living, and even served his country in the armed forces.

 
At 4:07 PM, Blogger Fred said...

2:33 wrote, "First time I've seen a situation where a blog owner has deleted their own posting. Fred's got lots of shame to hide behind his self promotion as someone with a valuable opinion.".

Nope. No shame, my friend. I just felt I went off on an irrelevant tangent (at least for the topic at hand). Aside from that, I was almost to the point of being insulting to you and, unlike some people here, I try not to do that. So, comment deleted.

 
At 6:52 PM, Blogger robash141 said...

If they are spending public money then they should have some regulations about how said money is spent plain and simple.

Its always amazing to me how these old cranks Like Leo Sears Partain and Howard Rien are always railing against spending public money on just about anything are simultaneously drawing government pensions.

Funny, I never see them voluntereering to mail those checks back in order to "curb wasteful spending"

They are not opposed to personally enriching themselves at government expense. They just don't want the government to do anything that might help YOU..

Perhaps Fred is like that as well

 
At 7:04 PM, Blogger Fred said...

Of course, Robash, we've never seen you suggest government employees get too much in the way of retirement or medical care. Aren't you the one supposedly fighting for "veteran's rights", or whatever you want to call it.

Best money and best benefits I ever had was when I was on active duty.

Sorry if I'm mistaking you for someone else.

 
At 8:40 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

teen challenge has recieved BILLIONS in federal grants since faith based initiatives passed in 2001. the director of the national teen challenge sat on bush's committee for faith based initiaitves..........they REQUIRE particpants to get food stamps...they ENCOURAGE people to get cash assistance from local and state authorities..LOOK AT THEIR OWN APPLICATION!!!!!!!!!!!!...redwood teen challenge web site, its a pdf file........this organization has pushed for MORE funding with taxpayer funds...look it up

 
At 8:57 PM, Blogger Fred said...

So, now you're opposed to government subsidizing non- profit type orgs? I could certainly sympathize, but I can't help but think your opposition is only because Teen Challenge is a faith based organization, as opposed to a politically correct lefty oriented one.

 
At 9:11 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

fred, as a libertarian, i am opposed to much of the federal funding that exsists, whether motivated by the right or the left wings.....i was just responding to the talk about this organization not being funded with our money...sure its a private org, but one third of the money comes from federal grants, and at least another third comes from state and local governemnts in the form of welfare and food stamps.....lets call it for what it is

 
At 9:28 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

fred, also, why should a private institution such as teen challenge not have to follow the same zoning laws as you and i? do you think that the zoning laws allow 50 men to live in under 4000sf? they dont.....the zoning that exsists on that property dont even allow for temporary housing, dormatories or shleters for unemployed persons.....lets at least acknowledge the laws that do exsist...even though most of us agree that too mant laws exist..

 
At 9:30 PM, Blogger robash141 said...

Yes that's me.

I have to hand it to you Fred I've met a bunch of guys who bragged about their Ramboesque military exploits.

Fred you're the only one I've seen who bragged what a soft ride you had in the military. Good for you,thats wonderful

My own military experiance worked pretty well for me too. a lot of good things I have in life I owe to my service.

However, thats not the case with everyone. Certainly not our poor people getting chewed up in Iraq right now.

Congratulations Fred, in a couple of short sentances you've perfectly encapsulated the liberatarian "Who Cares if I had a soft ride, I got mine f%&$ everyone else" mindset.

extreme narcissism as an economic philosophy.

 
At 9:30 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

city officials should be forced to follow their own city ordinances.....come on...thats a no-brainer......city planners arent being forced to do so......

 
At 9:51 PM, Anonymous smells like teen challenge said...

The name is so creepy.

 
At 8:20 AM, Blogger Fred said...

9:11 wrote, "i am opposed to much of the federal funding that exists, whether motivated by the right or the left wings.....".

Well, that isn't exactly the issue I was trying to address, but it's close.

I'm simply saying that whether or not Teen Challenge staff are accredited substance abuse counselors, or that the facility doesn't have full time medical staff present, is no reason to try to stop their work.

According to the guy that runs TC up here, TC has an 85% success rate. If true, I'll say what I said before: If it works, don't try and fix it.

As for receiving state for federal funds, sure, I'd love to see most if not all of the non- profits go the way of Hillsdale College and forego federal funding, if only to maintain their independence.

Apparently most don't care to go that route and that's just the way it is. I'm not going to argue that here as it wasn't the issue I meant to "argue" for this post. I'm just saying if they have a workable (and apparently successful) program, they shouldn't be jerked around because the staff haven't gone through the politically correct hoops to get government accredation.

As far as the zoning issue, I won't get into an argument right now about whether zoning laws are proper or not.

I am, however, familiar with the property in question, at one time living just a block away from there and it's not too far from where I live now.

Except for the legal aspects of it, zoning seems a moot point. The property is a stones throw from the intersection of Broadway and Wabash. I'd hardly call that a nice, quiet residential area- never mind the CalTrans complex across the street from it and never mind all the crime and drugs that already exist in that neighborhood.

That area of town has got to be the armpit of Eureka. It's a crappy neighborhood and a crappy area. I don't see how the impact of a Teen Challenge facility is going to be harmful at all.

If that facility ends up being placed there, on the upside we might find a fairly successful rehab facility in the county. The only downside I can see, although I haven't thought about this too much, is we might have a few more religious zealots in town walking around trying to save us, after they graduate from the program.

I think I can live with that downside.

 
At 8:57 AM, Anonymous mresquan said...

What's ironic here is that months back when I was walking the city and knocking on doors for Nan Abrams,the #1 complaint I received about her was that she worked in the Welfare Dept. and would only bring more welfare to the area.I also heard how she was too far to the left to be reasoned with on many issues.Now months later we have a staunch right winger who backed her opponent,trying to open the largest facility of this type into the county.This once again shows that right wingers are just as likely to be poverty pimps in comparison to other groups whom they make that accusation of.And low and behold,Brian Morrissey plans on subsidizing work on the ballooon track for them,instead of hiring local displaced workers.Too bad he wouldn't do the same for recently laid off Palco employees.
And do programs like these really help people from getting locked up in the first place?The prison population has exploded since their opening in 1958.Now that prison overpopulation is a serious problem,groups like this will get all the state funding necessary to divert prisoners into programs like this.Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place,love God or go to prison.

 
At 9:33 AM, Blogger Fred said...

"love God or go to prison.".

That seems to be the main point of contention, at least here on this blog; The fact that it's a faith based operation- never mind their claim of an 85% success rate.

Do programs like these stop people from ending up in prison in the first place? Probably not. I get the impression most are referred to the program after they get in trouble for one thing or another.

If they indeed do have an 85% success rate, then perhaps it should serve as a model for programs to keep people from going back to jail or prison?

I'd like to think everyone has an interest in helping people beat drug habits and/ or staying out of prison.

 
At 10:01 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Fred,

As a resident of the neighborhood you so kindly referred to as "the armpit of Eureka," I resent your attitude. I suppose that since it's "a crappy neighborhood and a crappy area," it's OK to disregard those of us who are trying to improve things on the west side. I have wonderful neighbors who, like I did, moved there because it was what we could afford. We invested in a marginal neighborhood with the thought in mind that we could make it better, clean it up and eradicate the drugs and crime. It's an uphill battle, but there has been noticeable improvement in recent years. I'm sick of our neigborhood being seen as a dumping ground for people who have screwed up their lives. We are a small core group, and we need support from the rest of the community. We love our homes and our neighbors, and we don't want our neighborhood to be a ghetto.

Teen Challenge boasts an 86% success rate. That statistic is based on a voluntary survey from the 1970s. There is no more recent data than this survey that completely lacks credibility. There is no security, and there will only be a MAXIMUM of 3 counselors on site at any time. These counselors are not medically certified, are not armed...and they're supposed to keep 50 male addicts under control? What happens when someone decides to leave the program? We end up with more homeless drug addicts on Wabash, and the drug pushers in the area get more customers to keep them in business.

Work with us. Help us in our mission to improve our neighborhood. We have families. We have children. We do not want this. Come to the City Council meeting tomorrow night, 6:30 p.m. at City Hall.

 
At 10:39 AM, Blogger Fred said...

I lived on the corner of Del Norte and Albee Streets, which is a block from the place in question, for a year or two(?) back when it was a nicer neighborhood than it is now (with the exception of me living there).

As I said earlier, I live on the 2100 block of E Street now, not all that far from there.

As far as I see it there's little downside and a possibility of improving things if these "students" there keep to the straight and narrow. That seems to be the case from what the newspapers tell us of other Teen Challenge houses around the county.

This will likely be a far cry from the half- way houses for released convicts already in your neighborhood (I know there used to be at least one on Del Norte Street near Pine(?).

Will students who fail the program hang around after they get booted? Hard to say but Teen Challenge says they get sent back from whence they came if they fail.

Sure, they may always come back on their own but I can't imagine why anyone, druggie or not, would want to come back and live in that neighborhood. If they do, they'd likely do it with or without Teen Challenge there.

Heck, they already have, without Teen Challenge. As you said, there are good people that move into that area "because it was all that we could afford". Understood. But that's also like moving in next to the airport and complaining about the noise.

 
At 10:50 AM, Blogger Fred said...

I might add, we have, or have had, at least two half- way/ group home type places in my neighborhood. One right across the street from me and one just half a block away, although I'll have to admit not just sure what that one just up the street was all about. There's a For Sale sign out in front of it now.

We never really had any problems with the one right across the street, and that was a group home for delinquent kids. Sure, they'd get a little rambunctious sometimes if the guys that ran it weren't around and once or twice cops came by looking for a kid or two, but never any real problems that affected us or the neighborhood.

They did a LOT of work remodeling that house, though. Really fixed it up and just recently put in a new lawn. That's supposed to be for sale now pretty soon. I guess they made their money and decided to move on.

I'll admit to being more worried about who's gonna move in there now than I was with the group home there. Seems to me the only one that could afford to buy a big, multi- room victorian like that would be someone who wanted it for a rental. Who knows who's gonna want to rent there, assuming that's what ends up happening?

At least with the group home they had people in charge of the kids living there.

When you really look at this neighborhood, the only "problem house", in the two or three blocks, is the druggie house a couple houses down from the old group home up the street. And that's not a group home. I believe someone there owns the house, although I'm not sure. They've been there for years.

 
At 12:37 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank you for showing some humanity here Fred, this issue really unmasks these liberal fascist creeps who are all for social justice unless it happens to live down the street from them. I'm all for locating the next treatment home in Bayside right next door to Harmony Groves. After all, she opposes emergency shelter in favor of these group homes.

 
At 1:17 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Robash has Fred pegged EXACTLY right. Fred cares first, last, and only, about himself.

He promotes the Teen Challenge bull**** hook, line and sinker even while admitting he really knows nothing about them. Except that they're a religious fundamentalist group and they operate on public money. They get Fred's support becasue that's just what Fred himself does.

Fred writes: "if what they say is true..." and "if what they promise is true...". Well Fred, thats bull! How about if what they say and promise ISN'T true? Then the neighborhood is stuck with a BIG problem, with the police and neighbors having to deal with it. And none of their "promises" are in writing and subject to enforcement. From what I've seen, Teen Challenge's promises and accomplishments aren't worth anything except to suck at the public trough, just like Fred.

 
At 1:36 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

AMEN, 1;17!

 
At 5:12 PM, Blogger robash141 said...

Furthermore it's pretty easy for someone who constantly spews anti government/anti regulatatory rhetoric to rationalize questionable expedatures of government money because they don't view any form of govrenment as legimate in the first place.

Perhaps they should consider moving to Somalia . Where they can have a no-govermnet libertarian paridise.

 
At 5:24 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The 86% success rating is a Lie.

Ask anybody who has ever worked in the field.

No recovery program has ever proved so high a success record.

On the other hand, many con artists and cult-related groups have suckered gullible governments and communities into giving them money to set up programs with statistics like that.

Don't saddle Eureka with a faith-based boondoggle because you have failed to do your research.

 
At 6:00 PM, Blogger Fred said...

Robash wrote"Furthermore it's pretty easy for someone who constantly spews anti government/anti regulatatory rhetoric to rationalize questionable expedatures of government money because they don't view any form of govrenment as legimate in the first place."

Robash: I hate to say this, but I'm under the impression you're a sicko.

Nothing you've said has anything to do with helping people. You seem to just be pissed this project is faith oriented, rather than government oriented.

Enough said.

5:24 wrote, "The 86% success rating is a Lie. Ask anybody who has ever worked in the field. No recovery program has ever proved so high a success record.".

That might well be. I don't know. But, seems to me, your biggest objection to this project is that it's a faith based project.

I don't know the statistics- neither do you. Yet you seem to be attacking it because it's faith based, rather than government based.

That seems sick to me.

 
At 6:02 PM, Blogger Fred said...

Hopefully, the media will agree with me, as opposed to the sickos opposing me.

I won't hold my breath, though.

 
At 6:10 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

teen challenge is govt based,they admitted in the TS article that they only bring in $500 a month, the rest comes from GOVERNMENTAL agencies or from work programs....teen challenge has recieved BILLIONS in federal grants....fred, you are the first big government libertarian ive ever met

 
At 6:11 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

fred, by the way, the "media" doenst get a vote on the matter, the city council does........go on and continue to worship big brother, we all know that you are a liberal

 
At 6:14 PM, Blogger Fred said...

6:10 wrote, "fred, you are the first big government libertarian ive ever met".

And you must be the first small(?) government lefty I've met?

 
At 6:16 PM, Blogger Fred said...

6:11 wrote, "we all know that you are a liberal".

Thank you. I guess I'll consider that a compliment?

 
At 6:19 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

fred, im socially liberal,fiscally conservative, like most libertarians..........you seem to be fiscally liberal.....i would imagine that the only thing that makes you a libertarian is the fact that you smoke pot, just a hunch.....tell me what you think..

 
At 6:22 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

a libertarian who considers being called a "liberal" a compliment?.......LOL....this is funny....ignorance must be bliss

 
At 6:25 PM, Blogger Fred said...

Nope, 6:19; You're an ass. Just like the rest of the trolls in Eureka that don't want to try and fix things.

I've smoked a lot of pot in my life, but the last time I smoked it was in 1984.

 
At 6:27 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

fred,
ive fixed up 4 properties in the last 3 years in eureka...what are you talking about?.......and who are you talking about helping?..... have you talked to any people who would even be willing to go into this program?.......are you suggesting that Big Brother round up people for this program?........

 
At 6:28 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

fred thinks that the media will vote on this matter....lol.......what a dumbass

 
At 6:29 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

do any libertarians frequent this site? or is it all liberals?

 
At 6:30 PM, Blogger Fred said...

Am I the only one that's noticed this whole argument about a faith based rehab place has degenerated into the fact that the org doing it, is accepting government money?

Interesting, huh?

That seems to be the crux of the argument, at least on this blog.

Never mind whether the project in question would be good for the neighborhood, or not.

Even more interesting, is that I suspect most of my detractors are big government type Lefties.

Oh...what a tangled web we weave...

 
At 6:30 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

seems like a liberal blog site to me

 
At 6:31 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

good for the nieghborhood? fred, name some businesses in that neighborhood......

 
At 6:34 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

funny how fred the liberal always changes the subject.....is he for goverment funding or not? as a libertarian, i seriously doubt whether fred is a truly informed person regarding the polital realm....

 
At 6:35 PM, Blogger Fred said...

CalTrans is right across the street. There's also some hall (Runeburg?) right across from CalTrans.

Also, there's apparently some Konkler guy that has some kiddie thingie right next to Runeburg Hall, or whatever that place is called.

Down Wabash, seems to me there's a salon, on the same side of the street, and some other businesses.

This is NOT your quaint, quiet neighborhood.

 
At 6:36 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

fred, what isnt quaint about the neighborhood?

 
At 6:37 PM, Blogger Fred said...

6:34 wrote, "unny how fred the liberal always changes the subject.....is he for goverment funding or not? as a libertarian, i seriously doubt whether fred is a truly informed person regarding the polital realm....".

That has nothing to do with the issue at hand, asshole.

Oh, you mispelled "political". You left out the i and c.

 
At 6:37 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

fred,
do you think that having 50 adult males 2 doors down from a business that caters to young girls could be problem? or do you not care about small businesses in eureka? just Big Box rehabs?

 
At 6:38 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

by the way, flips for kids is owned by a woman, named darcy

 
At 6:38 PM, Blogger Fred said...

Isn't this interesting how people are trying to change the topic here?

 
At 6:39 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

what is the topic? the topic has become fred's lies that he tells in order to promote his BIG BROTHER liberal agenda........

 
At 6:39 PM, Anonymous mresquan said...

Fred,you're assumption that this doesn't require government funding is way off.Please research this further than what's been written in the papers.If you're a fan of the prison industrial complex,then you're a fan of programs such as this one.They feed off of one another.
And because it's not a government approved program,they don't have to disclose salaries.They can essentially operate as a job agency,but without any oversight.
Fred,people are not against this because it is faith based.They are opposing it because it's just too much for that small space,and the area doesn't have the resources to deal with problems as they exist now,let alone deal with the 15% that they are proposing doesn't make it.And it will be up to local officials to enforce the policy of sending them back to where they came from,who likely won't do that because they will have another reason to look for more government funding.

 
At 6:42 PM, Blogger Fred said...

6:37 wrote, "do you think that having 50 adult males 2 doors down from a business that caters to young girls could be problem? or do you not care about small businesses in eureka? just Big Box rehabs?".

That's an insane suggestion, Sue.

So, fifty guys might (and I'm sure that's a stretch) end up at the place? So, there going to go out and rape any little girl that lives in the neighborhood?

Sick, sick, sick; At least that you're using that for an argument.

 
At 6:42 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

rape? you said it, not me

 
At 6:43 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

fred,
im talking about the impact on the business.....do you think that 50 adult males will make parents WANT to drop off their kids at that place?...

 
At 6:44 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

fred,
or do you really not care about private enterprise like a true libertarian should?

 
At 6:47 PM, Blogger Fred said...

Esquan wrote, "Fred,you're assumption that this doesn't require government funding is way off.Please research this further than what's been written in the papers.If you're a fan of the prison industrial complex,then you're a fan of programs such as this one.They feed off of one another.
And because it's not a government approved program,they don't have to disclose salaries.They can essentially operate as a job agency,but without any oversight.".

Bullshit, esquan. I'm sorry to hear u come of so Authoritarian.

And I never said it didn't require government funding. I said I'd like to hope it wouldn't.

But thanks, esquan. Since I've seen the vitriol over this project from, not only the nimbys, but others, I'm more in support of Teen Challenge than I was before this thread got started.

 
At 6:48 PM, Blogger Fred said...

6:44 wrote, "fred,
or do you really not care about private enterprise like a true libertarian should?".

What does that have to do with this?

 
At 6:50 PM, Blogger Fred said...

6:43 wrote, ".do you think that 50 adult males will make parents WANT to drop off their kids at that place?...".

What are u talking about? Seems to me we have some trolls here.

 
At 6:50 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

fred,
a real liberarian would not let goverment agencies take advantage of local businesses....a real libertarian would expect govt agencies to work WITH exsisting property owners and business owners.....why do you hold such hatred for concerned citizens speaking their minds? a real libertarian applauds Free Speech....fred, you seem to think that you are the only one who should have an opinion..

 
At 6:51 PM, Blogger Fred said...

Why are parents going to want to drop off their kids there?

 
At 6:51 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

we have trolls here? define a troll please......

 
At 6:52 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

fred,
the business has many services that require parents to drop off their children at Flips for Kids for extended periods of time.....get a clue...get off your HIGH HORSE

 
At 6:54 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

a 51 year old liberal that calls himself a libertaian,lol

 
At 6:58 PM, Blogger Fred said...

So what? There's all kinds of businesses in this county that are located near the "Riff Raff". The business you're speaking of already is located in a drug and crime infested area.

A rehab place isn't going to make that worse. If anything, it has the chance to make things better, at least over the long term.

 
At 6:59 PM, Blogger Fred said...

Notice how most of the comments are simply attacking me? Never mind dealing with the issue at hand.

 
At 7:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

what is bad about that neighborhood? and how will a rehab that serves people from out of the area help THAT neighborhood?....

 
At 7:01 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

fred,
no one is attacking you, they are setting you straight on libertarianism........you claim to be a libertarian, remember?

 
At 7:01 PM, Anonymous mresquan said...

Fred,to clarify,I don't agree with the whole need to be a government approved...mumbo jumbo.
Just saying that's the way things work now,whether I agree or not.

 
At 7:02 PM, Blogger Fred said...

Libertarianism be damned! We're discussing an issue here.

 
At 7:02 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

lino....libertarian in name only

 
At 7:03 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

fred,
how will a rehab that serves people from out of the area help the neighborhood? do you know any people who are going to sign up when it comes here?

 
At 7:07 PM, Blogger Fred said...

7pm wrote,"and how will a rehab that serves people from out of the area help THAT neighborhood?....".

Who knows. Of course, you seem to be worried about people coming in from out of the area- a valid concern.

As the news item today said, people who fail the program are sent back from whence they came. This is paranoia, at best, worrying about what seems to be a fairly well run program.

If it turns out it causes yet more crime in the neighborhood (which I doubt) it can always be shut down.

But if you look at the article in the Times- Standard today, the places they already have up here seem to be working fine.

 
At 7:09 PM, Blogger Fred said...

Oh; I might emphasize that not all the people in the Teen Challenge program are from out of the area, at least from what I read in the Times- Standard.

 
At 7:15 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

who knows?......thats all you can say fred?.......this is hardly discourse.....libertarian in name only.......you can only hide behind a name for so long.....take a political science class maybe, or learn to look deeper into issues...

 
At 7:15 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

fred's true colors are showing

 
At 7:16 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

this guy is ripping fred a new one

 
At 7:18 PM, Blogger Fred said...

Of course, you can't argue the issues, you can only argue if someone is a pc libertarian.

 
At 7:18 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

as someone who HAS done their research, i can tell you that you are wasting your time "discussing" this matter with fred......he sounds like a hurt little girl who needs to stick up for her mommy......

 
At 7:19 PM, Blogger Fred said...

Actually, from what I can see so far, I won this debate.

 
At 7:19 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

fred is a blind beleiver, he never really came across as a religious zealot before,maybe he is newly born again

 
At 7:20 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

fred,
what debate did you win?

 
At 7:23 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

what point is fred making?

 
At 7:28 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

this seems more like a battle than a debate, if you ask me

 
At 7:39 PM, Anonymous mresquan said...

Deal with the issue at hand instead of ranting about Fred's party affiliation.It will get you much further in defending your argument.
We need to have private run programs which keep folks from entering into this lifestyle in the first place.But groups like these benefit from failed programs which would have kept its residents out of trouble in the first place.
It's a tough issue because it's probably better than a government sponsored program of the same nature.
I just don't think that the neighborhood has the resoucres to deal with those who fail,the parking,and the increased traffic.And I just don't see those folks leaving when they do fail.The local government agencies will be out to assist them in staying here.

 
At 8:10 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

i ditto the last post, couldn't have said it better myself

 
At 8:40 PM, Blogger Rose said...

Why is it that so many people believe that choosing to register as a Democrat, Republican, or Libertarian suddenly turns you into an automaton, who must march in lockstep and participate in group-think? That suddenly you cannot have an opinion that varies from the stereotype, or are somehow incapable of forming an independent thought?

Fred asks alot of questions and explores the issue, invites reasonable discussion, and says generally "I say if it works, don't try and fix it."

They're all interesting questions, and don't seem to warrant all the personal attacks.

 
At 10:03 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'll try to summarize. Most folks aren't against this proposal because its religious, but feel its unfairly using religion as a excuse to evade the rules and will heavily impact the neighborhood with problems. Teen Challenge says they don't need to conform to rules because they are so good at what they do, therefore rules aren't needed. Also they seem somewhat exploitative because they use public money without accounting for it and bring in unskilled workers in competition with local folks. Fred believes all that on faith(for unknown reasons), and sees the neighborhood is already a dumping ground and so its a good place for more trash. Most other people don't. they see the neighborhood as diverse and plenty of folks trying to make it better, not needing a large unaccountable organization plopped down. That's because of past experience that neighborhoods decline when large numbers of dysfunctional people are brought in from elsewhere.

 
At 10:04 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

what questions did fred ask? looks to me like he has an issue with a lady named sue,he's mentioned her on both of his blogs on this issue.

 
At 10:14 PM, Anonymous some_guy said...

maybe its a boy named sue. oh wait,thats a johnny cash song

 
At 12:52 PM, Blogger robash141 said...

"Sicko"
Tsk,tsk such name calling it's deplorable coming from a fellow who purports hiself to be so dignified LOL.

In this case "faith based" is simply a euphanism for using public money to push a particular religious point of veiw. I'm all for helping drug addicts who want to be helped , Just leave the religion out, or pay for it some other way than tax money.

Since you don't respect our form of goverment it's easy for you to rationalize this kind of thing

 
At 2:14 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Robash, Fred's mind is like concrete, all mixed up and permanently set. When confronted with a facts and logic, he can only respond with playground name calling and insults, nyah nyah. But try to be compassionate, even though he isn't. After all what else can a welfare bum that says he's a libertarian do?

 
At 2:21 PM, Blogger Fred said...

Esquan wrote, ""Sicko".

Who said "Sicko"? I didn't see that anwhere.

 
At 3:23 PM, Anonymous mresquan said...

I didn't write "sicko" anywhere.You must have me mixed up with robash.

 
At 7:34 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Go to- http://teenchallengecult.blogspot.com/

This place needs to be investigated!

 
At 11:04 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks for the link. Despite the NIMBY B.S. we've seen, that does raise some disturbing points about how that program is run.

 
At 7:50 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Fred wrote:

5:24 wrote, "The 86% success rating is a Lie. Ask anybody who has ever worked in the field. No recovery program has ever proved so high a success record.".

That might well be. I don't know. But, seems to me, your biggest objection to this project is that it's a faith based project.

"I don't know the statistics- neither do you. Yet you seem to be attacking it because it's faith based, rather than government based.
That seems sick to me.
6:00 PM

* * * * * * * * * *

Sorry to return after an absence of several days. Duty called.

Fred, you may think a thing, but that does not make it so.

Your assumptions about my beliefs are incorrect. If I had a higher opinion of the value of your opinions, I might be upset. I'm not.

I'm just writing to set the record straight.

Yea, though I may be Anonymous, my integrity is as important to me as thine is to thee.

I wrote not because I hate Faith, but because I hate Fraud, especially when it masquerades as Faith.

 

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