Monday, August 08, 2016

In Support of E-cigs

Nice article from the Competitive Enterprise Institute taking the Food and Drug Administration to task for its attack on e- cigarettes:

"Even accounting for harms people might suffer from vaping who would have otherwise not smoked at all, the researchers found a net public health gain from the presence of e-cigarettes. So why is the U.S. Food and Drug Administration putting up big regulatory barriers for e-cigarettes starting in August?"

33 Comments:

At 12:59 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Smoking is good for no one, especially taxpayers who are left paying for the health costs associated with increasing tax premiums, etc.

 
At 1:14 PM, Blogger Fred Mangels said...

The whole point of this e-cig discussion is that e-cigs aren't nearly as harmful as regular cigarettes, thus a decent method of harm reduction.

 
At 1:22 PM, Blogger Julie Timmons said...

No e-cigs allowed in my house. Suck your thumb instead.

 
At 1:53 PM, Blogger Bob Wallace said...

Right now there the FDA has no ability to control what is in e-cigarettes and to whom they can be sold.

The FDA is not eliminating, just regulating.

It might be useful if you would stop accepting stuff you read on the web without digging a bit deeper in order to see how truthful the claims are.

Here's something from the FDA site -

"It’s important to note that FDA regulation of these products does not mean they are safe to use. But before this rule, there was no federal law to stop retailers from selling e-cigarettes, hookah, or cigars to youth under age 18.

There has been a major drop in the use of traditional cigarettes among youth over the past decade, but their use of other tobacco products is rising.

Current e-cigarette use among high school students has skyrocketed from 1.5 percent in 2011 to 16 percent in 2015 (a more than 900 percent increase) and hookah use has risen significantly, according to a survey supported by the FDA and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

This rule allows the FDA to protect youth by restricting their access to tobacco products."

"The FDA believes that this new technology has both potential benefits and risks. If certain products, such as e-cigarettes, have reduced toxicity compared to conventional cigarettes; encourage current smokers to switch completely; and/or are not widely used by youth, they may have the potential to reduce disease and death. But if any product prompts young people to become addicted to nicotine, reduces a person’s interest in quitting cigarettes, and/or leads to long-term usage with other tobacco products, the public health impact could be negative."

http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm506676.htm

 
At 4:34 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bob, that doesn't fit Fred's agenda so you best stop posting

 
At 6:10 PM, Blogger Fred Mangels said...

Braveheart wrote, "There has been a major drop in the use of traditional cigarettes among youth over the past decade, but their use of other tobacco products is rising."

Mostly due to the switchover to e-cigs, which aren't tobacco products as the FDA likes to claim. They simply contain nicotine, which enables many to give up actual tobacco products. That's why the British College of Physicians, or whatever they're called, recently declared e- cigs to be a potential health boon to Great Britian as it shows efficacy in getting people to give up cigarettes.

 
At 6:11 PM, Blogger Fred Mangels said...

Julie wrote, "No e-cigs allowed in my house."

Wow, Julie. You're pretty tough on this. I'm impressed.

 
At 6:16 PM, Blogger Fred Mangels said...

Bob, you may want to follow Dr. Siegel's blog. He's a anti- tobacco zealot that's come out firmly in support of e-cigs as a harm reduction measure. He takes the FDA and other government agencies to task for their misrepresentaions of vaping and e- cigs:

http://tinyurl.com/yw4fbl

 
At 7:04 PM, Blogger Bob Wallace said...

Here is what the FDA reports...

"There has been a major drop in the use of traditional cigarettes among youth over the past decade, but their use of other tobacco products is rising."

Here is what you claim, Fred...

"Mostly due to the switchover to e-cigs, which aren't tobacco products as the FDA likes to claim."

There's no data that I can see that shows that children are switching from tobacco to e-cigarettes.

There's a significant chance that children are getting hooked on nicotine and that may send them on to tobacco products. But, again, no data. This stuff needs to be studied before we make specific claims.

"Current e-cigarette use among high school students has skyrocketed from 1.5 percent in 2011 to 16 percent in 2015 (a more than 900 percent increase) and hookah use has risen significantly."

We don't know if this increase is youth switching away from tobacco or whether this is largely new nicotine addicts.

 
At 7:50 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"We don't know if this increase is youth switching away from tobacco or whether this is largely new nicotine addicts."
-------------------------------

I suspect plenty are new users, have never used cigarettes or e-cigs before, but would have become new cigarette users and now won't because they're perfectly happy with e-cigs, which don't make them smell bad and don't have the same "cancer sticks" reputation.

Of course there are also bound to be some who start with e-cigs and move to cigarettes...but I bet it is a lot fewer.

In any event, I agree we need more data so that we can do more than theorize.

 
At 9:24 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well said, in every post, Fred.
Bob, in the ecigs, the nicotine is optional. Most ecig users wean themselves off nicotine easily & gradually, to zero nicotine. The kids who switched over to the eCigs are no longer a contributer to the unconstitutional tax rapes, nor the failure products sold by the pharmaceutical groups who started the prohibition in the first place. The ACA, ALA, Tobacco free kids, etc, make their living off the cigarette taxes & the bonuses from the big pharma for pushing pharmaceutical smoking cessation products.
Now that even the kids have a way out of a lifelong addiction to smoking, the tax whores are frantic.
Now that even the kids have a way out of a lifelong addiction to smoking, big pharma is frantic.
Now that the nicotine is optional, curious kids are not becoming addicted to real tobacco. Big tobacco, big pharma, & big tax whores are frantic.
The fda doesn't regulate benefits. Vendors can no longer share any of the benefits to not smoking.
The flavors of the ecigs make the tobacco cigarettes taste like crap. Finding that one never smoked before kid who tries a vanilla custard ecig flavor, then tries & prefers the flavor of a real cigarette, is next to impossible. It is not happening.
So, the fda, state attorney generals, ALA, big pharma, big tobacco, all lobby to make flavors a boogeyman.
The 12,000 mom & pop. vendors will shut their doors, thanks to the corruption. All will be forced to buy only from big tobacco.
The fda did approve 44 brands of tobacco cigarettes.
They did approve big tobacco's tobacco flavored equivalent ecig products.
Follow the money.

 
At 9:40 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Even when over half of the population smoked, only 1% were classified as smoking related deaths. There has never been a 50% epidemic.
They claim that smoking is the number one preventable cause of death.
Hospitals, misdiagnosis, botched procedures, healthcare, prescription drugs, death rates are much higher, all preventable.
They refuse to admit or acknowledge that their save the children hitler campaign is a massive lie. Government funding of ABORTION is the number one cause of preventable death. Like others have said, save the children, my ass!

 
At 9:44 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ben Swann lightly covers the corruption. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HyQwd8su9es

 
At 10:30 AM, Blogger Bob Wallace said...

" Most ecig users wean themselves off nicotine easily & gradually, to zero nicotine."

If that is the case then Great!. I'm all for stuff that helps people kick an addiction.

"Now that the nicotine is optional, curious kids are not becoming addicted to real tobacco."

I don't think we know that to be true. What we know is that over the last five years the use of ecigs among children "has skyrocketed from 1.5 percent in 2011 to 16 percent in 2015 (a more than 900 percent increase". At this point in time we don't, as far as I know, have any data that tells us whether kids who are now using ecigs will give them up after a couple of years or move to tobacco.

As anyone who has been addicted to nicotine knows the lure lasts long after you've kicked the habit. I haven't smoked for about 40 years but the desire still pops up from time to time. A fourteen old hooked on nicotine will be primed to grab a pack of cigs for much of their life after they quit the tube.

 
At 10:45 AM, Blogger Bob Wallace said...

Let's see if we can make sense of the claim that ecigs are getting young people off tobacco.

I found some data from the CDC on youth (student) smoking.

http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/tables/trends/cig_smoking/

Their data starts in 1991 with a 27.5% rate. I'll just list a few years...

1991 27.5%
1997 36.4% (Peak use year)
2007 20.0% (Fairly rapid drop. 1.6% per year drop.)
2011 18.1% (Beginning of the ecig era?)
2014 15.7% (Gradual drop over 7 years. 0.8% per year drop.)

There's no big drop in student cigarette use as ecigs have hit the market. From 2011 to 2014 cigarette use dropped 2.4% while ecig use went from 1.5% to 16% (2015). This is a new group of young people being addicted to nicotine.

 
At 4:51 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes, it is very much true, Bob. They can experiment, nicotine free.
Also, as an aside, nicotine is no more addictive than caffeine, when not inside a real tobacco cigarette. It is a dependency drug, like caffeine. All data easily verified.

As far as the CDC. The CDC decided to list ecigs as tobacco, in order to change the stats. Now, instead of it reading ecigs rising, smoking falling, it reads as one. It is hook & crook data, not real.
Cigarette sales have plummeted to record lows, while eCigs (with & without nicotine), soared to record highs.
Now they are trying to ban ecigs by unfair regulations & taxes, while simutaneously increasing cigarette taxes. They WANT the kids addicted to smokes. They've passed laws forbidding them from switching.
Meanwhile, the FDA approves 44 brands of smokes for their smoking enjoyment.

Ecigs is a gateway FROM smoking.

 
At 5:21 PM, Blogger Bob Wallace said...

"They (CDC) WANT the kids addicted to smokes."

You probably don't even realize how batshit crazy that claim is.

And here's some more crazy...

"The CDC decided to list ecigs as tobacco, in order to change the stats. Now, instead of it reading ecigs rising, smoking falling, it reads as one. "

Data is kept separately for cigarettes, cigars, snuff, chewing tobacco, and ecigs.

Placing ecigs in the broad "tobacco" category makes sense as ecigs are a nicotine delivery method.

 
At 7:47 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

People, doctors, journalists, have been keeping tabs on the data since 2009 or 10.
Smoking plummeted to record lows, while ecigs soared. http://reason.com/blog/2014/12/17/vaping-rises-to-record-highs-smoking-fal
Bonnie Herzog kept putting out warning memos. The tobacco settlement trust agreement stopped receiving funds due to low sells.
Then the junk science, propaganda, fear mongering about ecigs became intense. Still, cigarette sells plummeted.
Then cdc put ecigs into the tobacco category. More fear mongering, junk science, taxes, increased intensity.
No, Bob, the WHO, UN, CDC, all work together. The ALA, TFK, etc are their prostitutes. Except the innocent nannys who are just whores, thinking they're serving mankind & saving the world.
Dr. Siegel's blog probably has the cdc data, he's been fighting them and their kind for years. Your data is construed to fit the "tobacco epidemic".
There is no epidemic. Tobacco is not the number one preventable cause of death with it's 1% possible cause & affect. You want to save the children? Get off smoker's or Vaper's backs and start fighting the real number 1 preventable death rate of children. Millions have been murdered through govt subsidised abortion.
Think of the chillllldren.

 
At 8:08 PM, Blogger Bob Wallace said...

If you look at the rate of decline in cigarette use in the graph on the page you link you can see that cigarette use started a decline in the late 1990s.

There is no abrupt increase in rate of decline as ecigs entered the market. There is no reason to attribute a decrease in cigarette use among youth to ecigs, that decrease was already well underway.

Will ecigs lead to future cigarette use? That we can't yet answer. We can be sure that we are increasing the number of youths who have acquired an addiction to nicotine. Will they use ecigs later on when the desire crops up or will they pick up a pack of cigs? We'll have to wait and see.

Now as to your "prostitutes", "innocent nannys" and "whores" stuff. That's whacko land.

 
At 9:14 PM, Blogger Elaine Keller said...

http://www.samhsa.gov/data/sites/default/files/NSDUHnationalfindingresults2012/NSDUHnationalfindingresults2012/NSDUHresults2012.htm#fig4.4



Results from the 2012 National Survey on Drug Use and Health: Summary of National Findings



U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES. Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration. Center for Behavioral Health Statistics and Quality

 
At 10:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

What a great link, Elaine! The charts are very telling indeed.
http://www.samhsa.gov/data/sites/default/files/NSDUHnationalfindingresults2012/NSDUHnationalfindingresults2012/NSDUHresults2012.htm#fig4

 
At 10:16 PM, Blogger Bob Wallace said...

What do the charts tell you?

 
At 12:47 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Smoking at lowest in 24 years
http://www.mprnews.org/story/2016/05/24/cdc-reports-adult-smoking-rate-biggest-fall-in-decades

Smoking fell 15% in one year, public health panics
http://www.mprnews.org/story/2016/05/24/cdc-reports-adult-smoking-rate-biggest-fall-in-decades

More than 9 million smoke tax citizens switch to vaping, cdc complains
https://www.atr.org/new-cdc-data-more-9-million-adults-vape-regularly-united-states

Cigarette sales so low, many companies avoid MSA dues
http://www.richmond.com/business/local/article_fba7bce6-dc33-5e05-b53d-3b454ab3e43a.html

 
At 12:50 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pt2:
FDA protecting big tobacco
http://reason.com/archives/2014/02/27/fda-cigarette-regulations-protect-big-to

War on vaping, to prop up taxing.
http://reason.com/archives/2016/07/01/war-on-vaping-an-effort-to-prop-up-tobac

NZ anti's going out of business. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/health/news/article.cfm?c_id=204&objectid=11663855&ref=rss&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Over 6 million smokers switched to vaping, in UK.
http://vaping.org/press-release/new-study-6-1-million-europeans-quit-smoking-thanks-vaping/

Arkansas prepared to defund anti-nicotine zealots
http://5newsonline.com/2016/07/12/arkansas-lawmakers-set-to-defund-states-smoking-hotline/

 
At 12:52 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pt3:
Doctors want fda to focus on benefits. http://dailycaller.com/2016/04/25/doctors-attack-e-cigarette-taxes-tell-fda-to-focus-on-benefits-of-vaping/

Anti-nicotine zealots mad over dwindling funds, so they lobby harder for ecig taxes. http://nbc25news.com/news/local/state-plans-to-use-tobacco-money-to-rescue-detroit-schools

WV using smoke tax for schools. (ALA out of funds, must lobby for ecig tax).
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/2016/06/18/west-virginia-hopes-nicotine-addicts-will-help-fill-budget-deficit/

Calif signs bill to treat ecigs like smokes, for gathering missing smoke funds for Career nazi's. http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article75696152.html

Why does govt want to destroy vapor? http://nypost.com/2016/05/01/why-is-the-government-out-to-destroy-vaping/

 
At 12:53 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pt4:

CDC proposes new toe tags. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/may/03/cause-of-death-united-states-medical-error

Even the Lords realize it's not about health.
http://dickpuddlecote.blogspot.com/2016/05/the-lords-realise-its-not-about-health.html?spref=tw

FDA goes way overboard, to effectively ban.
http://www.ecigarette-research.org/research/index.php/whats-new/whatsnew-2016/240-fda

CDC director under fire for misleading about ecigs.
https://www.rastavapors.com/blog/cdc-director-tom-frieden-under-fire-for-issuing-false-data-about-ecigs/#.V1eK6z10jYw.twitter

Mitch Zellar, big pharma lobbyist
https://www.vapes.com/blogs/news/122786497-mitch-zeller-and-jack-henningfield-the-big-pharma-conspiracy-behind-the-fda-e-cig-regulations

P. praises ecigs, while fda caters to tax whores & monopolies.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/royal-college-of-physicians-promotes-e-cigarettes-while-fda-rules-effectively-ban-them-300264254.html?tc=eml_cleartime#continue-jump

872 components of toxic breath
http://www.thejournal.ie/smoking-poll-2771622-May2016/

"The results of the study basically showed that indoor air and normal exhaled breath contains more VOCs that the e-cigarette aerosol! ". http://www.ecigarette-research.org/research/index.php/whats-new/whatsnew-2015/226-sp

.

 
At 12:56 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pt5:

The dirty dozen. http://www.vapingpost.com/2016/07/05/a-gathering-of-crows/#.V3xL5pEFbTQ.twitter

Public health addicted to nicotine taxes
http://www.rstreet.org/op-ed/state-officials-addicted-to-nicotine-taxes/

American Heart Association accepts vaping
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-american-heart-association-says-vaping-is-safer-than-smoking

New study shows vaping equivalent to quitting smoking
http://myinforms.com/en-us/a/38397893-new-clinical-study-shows-exclusive-e-cigarette-use-reduces-exposure-to-harmful-chemicals-similar-to-complete-smoking-cessation/

Second hand mmj smoke worse than SHS, must get it taxed too.
http://news.heart.org/secondhand-marijuana-smoke-damages-blood-vessels-more-than-tobacco-smoke/

 
At 1:06 PM, Blogger Bob Wallace said...

In all those links did you find a piece of research which found that ecigs have reduced the use of tobacco among youths?

Remember, cigarette smoking had be falling for several years before ecigs were introduced and the CDC data shows no acceleration of that decrease during the last few years. In fact, the rate has slowed.

 
At 4:14 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

There were many Bob, it's up to you to do the follow through & read the linked materials if you're interested.
Here's another one. http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobsullum/2016/04/28/royal-college-of-physicians-says-e-cigarettes-can-prevent-almost-all-the-harm-from-smoking/#37d1ca091f46

And another. http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/2016/04/cdc-continues-to-lie-and-deceive-public.html

 
At 8:10 PM, Blogger Bob Wallace said...

Fred made a claim that ecigs were reducing youth smoking. The site he pointed to has no data to support that claim.

At this point I see no data to support his claim.

And we won't know for several years whether ecig use will or will not lead to higher tobacco use by those who get hooked on nicotine via ecigs.


BTW, I am not anti-ecigs. Just pro-facts.

 
At 8:29 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Fred also left this post for you under the wrong thread.
If you were not pro smoke tax, you would find the data.

Fred's post:
In case you hadn't seen it, Bob, someone posted a link to this video yesterday and I featured it here some time ago. A youtube video that explains the State of California's War on E- cigs.

Short version: Back when the big tobacco settlement with states was made, tobacco companies were ordered to pay billions to the states. The California legislature, not happy with the money trickling in through tobacco taxes, sold bonds for the money- planning to pay the bonds off with tobacco tax money.

A problem arose when smoking dropped, in large part due to e- cigs. The state then had a hard time paying off their bonds. This left the state with two alternatives: Get more people smoking, which wouldn't go over well, or, find something else to tax. Since e-cigs were the cause of funds drying up, they decided to demonize e-cigs as a way of gaining support for taxing them.

How much the FDA is playing along to help the state is anyone's guess.

Simple enough. As with most things, follow the money:
http://tinyurl.com/o63o3jf

 
At 9:53 AM, Blogger Bob Wallace said...

"Follow the money."

Wonder why your bloomers are in such a bunch over taxing ecigs?

I've got no position on taxing ecigs. I suppose if I needed to have one I would take a careful look at the actual data on possible health damage (not opinion pieces) and see if there's a medical cost to society, an external cost, that needs to be put back on the user.

I do not believe that taxpayers should be required to cover the external costs of any industry. Look at the hundreds of billions of dollars we pay because of coal smoke damage.

As for ecigs being or not being a gateway drug to tobacco we'll have to wait several years to see. Kids are just now starting to use ecigs in great numbers. We'll have to wait to see if they continue with ecigs, kick their addiction, or move to tobacco.

 
At 10:09 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

More of my posts with links have disappeared.
Trying again, in partials.
Part6
Cdc survey data chart, smoking falls
http://reason.com/blog/2014/11/14/smoking-by-teenagers-continues-to-fall-a

Before cdc changed the label. Oh noes! Smoking down, we must stop all ecig adverts
http://acsh.org/news/2014/06/13/cdc-finally-tells-truth-teen-smoking-still-declining-even-e-cigarettes/

Charts showing smoking way down
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/04/28/e-cigarettes-not-gateway-smoking/

Clive Bates, chief anti-smoker, sends cease & desist letter over gateway claims.
http://www.clivebates.com/?p=2053

Taste comparisons keep non smokers as non smokers. But we need more taxpayers money, as always, because that's how we stroke it.
http://www.cspdailynews.com/category-news/tobacco/articles/youth-smoking-rates-hit-record-low

Cdc finally admits smoking is down, ecigs (including the fear mongered zero nicotine) ecigs is up.
http://reason.com/blog/2013/11/20/cdc-belatedly-reveals-that-smoking-by-te

 

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